Hi.  Yes, i've seen multiple threads about trqansparency vs. transucency, and i believe i have followed this as best as i can.  I will start out by saying i am still using the 4.2 beta, as it takes me an hour or two to download the while thing, and that cuts heavily into my free time.  I am having a problem with translucent texturing.  Basically, i have an 8-bit (256 color) Alpha cahnnel.  I am setting the transluceny over 0 (i used 50 for a start).  However, i am having the problem of everything becoming translucent in the background.  I have to use translucency, as i am working on passenger cars, and need the tinting for the windows.  I do NOT use the -trans option on makeace, as i never have and have had all my default Superliner repaints turn out fine.  What am i doing wrong (or do i actually need the new version of 3D Canvas Pro)?
Thanks!
-------- BUZZ

Hi,

The discussion about translucency in this forum is based on the released version. This information doesn't apply to the beta. They work differently. I would strongly recommend downloading the released version.

Richard

Okay, i guess i'll give that a try.  I had seen something about textures being handled differently in the released version, that they came out darker or something.  Will the released version affect what i have already textured from the beta?

Thanks!

Have a look at this tutorial it explains a lot: http://www.btinternet.com/~mike.pye/Improvements.htm

Richard

Buzz, I'm currently trying to put together a tutorial on using translucency maps. Largely learning what I don't know myself so far Specifically, I'm trying to regenerate the Scotsman cab which has 'windows' that use both translucency and full transparency on the same face. I got the see-through background in one case, even with the full 4.2. I was using a cube primitive with one face deleted as the basic model, with single sided texturing. I got round the see-through background by cloning the cube and inverting the clone (Not the solution ... please see later posts ). I was then able to paint the texture map both internally and externally. So you might need to add an internal face to avoid the problem.

I can get the effect I want in Canvas, but I can't get the translucency to show in MSTS. Fully transparent windows are okay, but the translucent ones in Canvas are either opaque or fully transparent in MSTS, depending on whether or not I use the -trans option to make the ace file.
Not sure if all this will help you or not, but thought if I mentioned it someone might tell me how to solve my problem ;D

Mike

PS The darker models were associated with the file conversion exercise, from 3ds. Models generated in Canvas should be okay. Also if you do install the full version you need to uninstall the beta first.

Buzz, not sure about some of the earlier information now. I managed to get the cab running in MSTS just as it looked in Canvas. I had to set the translucent value in the material palette to 50 and run the makeace without the trans option. Only problem is the that the see-through background is there again and I think it's in both the translucent and transparent parts. I guess this is just confirming your original post, but with the full 4.2.

Think I must have had a finite translucent value set earlier too, but it's too late/early in the day to re-check now. I'll re-run the procedure I used step-by-step later and cross check.
Mike

I've finshed some parametric tests, so I'll try and summarise the results.

The tests were done with Scotsman textures in which the TGA files contain an alpha channel, with black, grey and white areas. All tests were with single faces and the single face texture option using the paint tool from the edit toolbar.


Material Palette Translucency Value 0:

Makeace with -T option... Transparent areas were transparent. Translucent areas were opaque. Background was visible through transparent area.

Makeace without -T option ..... Transparent areas were transparent. Translucent areas were transparent. Background was visible through both.



Material Palette Translucency Value 50:

Makeace with -T option... Transparent areas were transparent. Translucent areas were opaque. Background was not visible through transparent area.

Makeace without -T option ..... Transparent areas were transparent. Translucent areas were translucent. Background was not visible through either.

The last results are consistent with the MSTS installed Scotsman apart from the background issue.

It looks as though setting a finite value for the material palette translucency will cause the background to be invisible when the alpaha channel information is loaded to the translucency map tab. Using the -T option with makeace does not have the desired effect, but this is consistent with the MSTS documentation. The document says to use this option with TGA files that contain a transparent layer, not those with an alpha channel. Starting to get out of depth on this particular issue, so I guess some more research is required next.

Mike

There must be some magic involved to getting translucency to work.

I've had a good look at this now. A fellow created a 3DS file for me in 3D Studio Max containing a cube that was set to be an "AlphBright" material, which is supposed to indicate a translucent object. I then converted the file to .s using CONV3DS.EXE (the one supplied with MSTS). I manually replaced the texture filename in the file with a "known" correct file - SSCOTSMAN04.ACE. I then replaced the Scotsman with this cube. The result was a cube with translucency. The terrain and tracks were visible through the translucency, but not the various objects added to the scene.

Based on this, I have no way to resolve the problem since this can happen with 3DS Max created objects as well as 3D Canvas created objects. Hopefully someone will find the solution. There must be a solution since the real Scotsman seems to be capable of doing this.

I am wondering if anyone has tried translucent-only textures? This texture that I used is a translucent/transparent texture. It probably makes no difference, but it could.

Richard

Thanks Richard, good to know it's not a Canvas specific problem.

I'm wondering if the way to tackle translucency is with the second type of file that the MSTS notes refer to i.e. using a transparent layer instead of an alpha one. I'm currently using a greyscale alpha channel.

There are a few differences between the 3ds Scotsman transfer model and the game installed one, that make me think the sample files are not the ones that were used to produce the installed model. I also noticed in the MSTS 'creation of a complex shape' doc that reference is made to a separate 64x64 pixel texture that was used for window translucency.

I have only a very vague idea of what the docs might mean about using a transparent layer, but I'll 'play' around a bit more with this concept. I'll let you know if I make any progress.

Mike

It could still be essentially a 3D Canvas only issue. It could be that CONV3DS.EXE fails to properly convert simple models (such as a cube) properly and works on more complicated objects. Either way, I can't detect what needs to be changed in the "s" file to make this work.

Richard

Richard

Would any of the MSTS default de-compiled .s files be of any use?  I de-compiled the Superliner's .s file (just for fun), and there are several parameters there that i cannot get with 3D Canvas.  I chose the Superliner as this model has interior components as well, and translucent windows across the whole body.

----- BUZZ

Sure. Just send it to me (richard@amabilis.com) and I'll have a look at it. (Also, let me know what specifically you think is missing from the 3D Canvas created file.)

Richard

There are some interesting things in the file that I haven't seen before. Some look like comments to me. Actually, I would be curious to see what converting a 3D Canvas created file to the binary format and back to text again would do to the file.

Richard

Richard, I've mentioned this before, but I don't know if you picked up on it, or knew it already. The MSTS ffeditc_unicode.exe utility can be used to convert installed s files to text format by using the k switch.

I use ffeditc_unicode.exe scotsman.s /k for the Scotsman.

I've compared the cab texture definitions in the original with those from my Canvas test model. I can't see any differences, but I guess you know that already

I've also changed the texture file definition in the Canvas output to point to the original texture files. The results look the same in both cases. The model matches the installed Scotsman, with the exception of the missing background items. The texture map in this case is translucent, using only 50% grey tones in the alpha channel.

Does all this suggest that there is something else in the file that defines alpha prioritisation ? There just don't seem to be any parameters in the texture definition blocks for the installed s files that do this. For example where would Alphanormal+ or Alphanormal- properties be defined?

Mike

I guess this is still somewhat on the issue, but has anyone else had problems with 3D Canvas Pro displaying translucent textures?  On my baggage car, i am using some heavy tinting on the windows, and just for a test, i have a really dark color on the Alpha channel and a really light gray next to that.  I split the alpha channel into an 8-bit .bmp.  When i use this as the translucency map, the light gray area is not translucent at all - it is completely opaque.  I tried several different translucency values, all ended up doing the same thing.  I even changed the bitmap to a 24-bit, same thing still happened.  Am i doing something wrong with the bitmap itself?  Could this be related to the problem?

Mike,

That was more of a "hmmmm, I wonder...", but thanks for the answer.

Richard

Richard,

Can the fellow who did the 3D Studio Max Object for you re-do it using AlphNorm+ for the material name?
Train-sim.com had a post where someone using AlphNorm for the material name had the same problem we do, but claimed using AlphNorm+ instead fixed it.  Just a thought...

I just decided to take the Scotsman 3ds sample file through the Kuju conv3ds utility and install it it the 'game'. It was a lot quicker than taking it through Canvas ;D ;D - but guess what.. even though the cab windows were translucent, no world objects were visible through them, except for the usual track and landscape.

Richard, I noticed that the Kuju files are using BlendATexDiff rather than BlendATex for the cab window texture. I tried editing the Canvas output, but found no difference. I somehow suspect you've already tried that though.

Mike

buzzbenz,

He provided me with all of the materials, including the pluses and minuses.

Richard

Mike,

Now THAT is interesting. I wonder why. It sounds to me like their CONV3DS.EXE doesn't work properly. Maybe they do something to the resulting S file manually? I am very curious to know exactly what. But until there is an SDK we probably won't know the answer.

Richard