First train model in 3DC
Amabilis Forum: Microsoft Train Simulator Export: First train model in 3DC
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (204.239.136.254) on Thursday, July 26, 2001 – 09:04 am: andnbsp;
Hi,
I want to model the andquot;shellandquot; of an engine (whatever that is called in train lingo) to demonstrate that it can be done in 3DC.
It is easy to model most steam engines (though time consuming), so I want to create a modern engine.
To do this I need some drawings. Does anyone have a Top, Side and Front view of a modern engine? Preferably ones that I could distribute with a tutorial for making engines? If so could you send them to me at .
Of course the model will be made available to everyone.
Note that I am not planning to create an entire engine with textures etc. Just an untextured shell.
Thanks,
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By Ron Paludan (63.14.200.38) on Thursday, July 26, 2001 – 02:11 pm: andnbsp;
The drawsings on this page are a bit crude, but are probably adequate for a test:
[img:3p7mvbiu]http://home.att.net/%7EBerliner-Ultrasonics/boxcabs4.html#outline[/img:3p7mvbiu]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/boxcabs4.html#outline">http://home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasoni … ml#outline</a><!– m –>
In addition to being an interesting historical model, I think that these early boxcabs might actually be easier than a modern diesel.
Meanwhile, I’ll try to find some better drawings.
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.160.218) on Thursday, July 26, 2001 – 03:09 pm: andnbsp;
Richard,
MSTS comes with some sample 3ds loco files. These load into 3DC. The Dash9 loco file is 143KB. Might be easier for you to work from this and I guess most interested parties would already have the source file. Let me know if you want a copy and I’ll mail it to you.
Mike
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (204.239.136.254) on Thursday, July 26, 2001 – 03:35 pm: andnbsp;
Ron,
Those are exactly the type of drawings I am looking for. Unfortunately it is too simple. I am looking for something like a TGV or Shinkansen (sp?). Something streamlined.
Mike,
Thanks for the info, but I am actually interested in modeling a new engine.
Also, there might be a better way of importing those 3ds models than doing a direct import. If you do a direct import you loose the object hierarchy. If you use the DirectX SDK’s CONV3DS.EXE (not the MSTS CONV3DS.EXE) to convert to an X file, and import the X file you can preserve the hierarchy. A much better situation since it also preserves the pivot points and materials.
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By Ron Paludan (63.14.218.239) on Thursday, July 26, 2001 – 04:37 pm: andnbsp;
Still looking for TGV drawings. I found drawings (in pdf format) of one of the first streamliners, the CBandamp;Q’s Pioneer Zephyr:
[img:3p7mvbiu]http://www.rickadee.net/%7Ezephyrus/pioneer/pioneer.html[/img:3p7mvbiu]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://www.rickadee.net/~zephyrus/pioneer/pioneer.html">http://www.rickadee.net/~zephyrus/pioneer/pioneer.html</a><!– m –>
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Thursday, July 26, 2001 – 05:51 pm: andnbsp;
Hi,
Thanks for the info. I didn’t mean for anyone to go out looking. I just figured if anyone had something around they would like to see modeled that I might be able to do it. But thanks for looking for me.
For those interest in CONV3DS.EXE, it is available at this unofficial download site: [img:3p7mvbiu]http://members.nbci.com/omarvision/tutorials/directx/conv3ds.htm[/img:3p7mvbiu]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://members.nbci.com/omarvision/tutorials/directx/conv3ds.htm">http://members.nbci.com/omarvision/tuto … onv3ds.htm</a><!– m –>
Richard
Amabilis software
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (195.92.168.165) on Thursday, July 26, 2001 – 08:08 pm: andnbsp;
Richard,
Many thanks for the conv3ds site reference. It seems to work too. Got a textured Scotsman into 3DC (less transparency) and with different pivot points for each object. I’ll see if I can rename the objects and re-export it later today….. 4:00 am here now andnbsp;At least this is starting to give me a feel for what is needed before I launch out into modelling something for myself.
Mike
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (195.92.168.166) on Friday, July 27, 2001 – 08:11 am: andnbsp;
Richard,
Following on from my last post. I have been trying to import texture for the transparent areas using a modified TGA file, in which the alpha channel has been deleted and the file resaved in bmp format. My intention was then to modify the mateial file names in the x file to load them into 3DC.
The main problem that has arisen from this is that I can’t edit either the original 3ds file, or the x file produced with the SDK CONV3DS.EXE, without the saved file format being ‘corrupted’. For example, even if I only load the x file into Wordpad and immeadiately resave, without any editing, there is a change in the reported file size and 3DC declares an invalid file format when I try to import it.
This is obviously not a 3DC specific problem, but I’ve exhausted my own ideas on things to try and can’t find any information on the Boards, so I hope you will forgive me for asking for help here.
Mike
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Friday, July 27, 2001 – 05:27 pm: andnbsp;
Hi,
There is a program called convxfmt.exe that will change a binary .x file into a text .x file. If you do that you will be able to manually modify the .x file. It is part of the DirectX SDK (which is downloadable but big), and it might be available elsewhere on the ‘net.
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Friday, July 27, 2001 – 06:58 pm: andnbsp;
Richard, Mike,
I just got 3DC Pro 4.2.
As a first learning andquot;projectandquot; I wanted to import Scotsman2000.cds from the MSTS samples file and then export it into a .s file to try in MSTS.
Based on your earlier notes I used the CONV3DS.EXE from the SDK to first convert to SCOTSMAN2000.x and then imported that to 3DC.
When I try and export to MSTS I get an error message andquot;export failed due to object being partially or entirely untexturedandquot; message.
Additionally I don’t see any of the names in the scene hierarchy panel – everything is named either andquot;frameandquot; or andquot;objectandquot;.
Seems like you guys have got this to work so I would appreciate your help as to what I am doing wrong – or not doing. Like maybe some switch is needed to Conv3ds?
Your help would be appreciated.
Richard
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Friday, July 27, 2001 – 07:33 pm: andnbsp;
Hi,
Did it show up with textures intact? I’m guessing that it didn’t or it wouldn’t give you that message. CONV3DS.EXE can change texture references to BMPs (required to import into 3DC) and you’ll very likely need to do that (and change the textures themselves into BMPs)
The Frames will have to be manually named. The names aren’t preserved on import.
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.22.94) on Friday, July 27, 2001 – 07:40 pm: andnbsp;
Richard S
Great minds think alike……(we’ll forget the next bit), I haven’t got any further than you yet though <!– s:-) –><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="
" title="Smile" /><!– s:-) –>
I was trying to get the transparent TGA textures in as opaque bmps so that I could try the export myself. Think you will also have to rename the frames in 3DC in accordance with the MSTS notes. The SDK download is about 140MB, so that’s out of the question for me, therefore I plan to try and add the missing textures, by hand, after importing what I can into 3DC via the x file. When I go this way I’ll try for the transparency as well by using a second bmp with the alpha information, as (I think) Richard suggests. If you want to compare progress off the board for now please feel free to mail me:
<!– e –><a href="mailto:mike.pye@btinternet.com">mike.pye@btinternet.com</a><!– e –>
Mike
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (195.92.168.164) on Friday, July 27, 2001 – 08:04 pm: andnbsp;
Richard B,
The opaque textures come across Okay, but I can’t change the TGA texture references in the 3DS source file without invalidating it as far as CONV3DS.EXE is concerned. I was thinking of trying as ASCII editor, or, more likely, I’ll try reapplying them as BMPs once I’ve imported as much as I can to 3DC via the x file.
Ahh…Just absorbed your reference to CONV3DS.EXE being able to change the texture references to BMPs, do you have any more details on this, since it’s not an option mentioned on the site I downloaded the file from.
On a slightly different topic, I’ve found a utility for converting the s file format to text. It’s included with MSTS. I suspect you may know about it, but I don’t remember seeing it referred to anywhere else. If you don’t know of it and would like details please let me know.
Mike
andnbsp; By MRRextreme (172.149.234.213) on Friday, July 27, 2001 – 08:16 pm: andnbsp;
What option on conv3ds changes the texture references to BMPs?
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Friday, July 27, 2001 – 08:27 pm: andnbsp;
Hi,
Its the -e option. Also I notice it gives you the option of converting to a text .x file instead of binary.
Just type andquot;conv3ds | moreandquot; to show all of its options.
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Friday, July 27, 2001 – 08:48 pm: andnbsp;
Richard, Mike,
Thanks to both of you for the prompt replies.
Seems like naming the frames manually in 3DC (and if required tweaking the hierarchy) shouldn’t be too bad based on the notes in the MSTS techdoc – or so I hope. Rummaging in the .s file in the trainsetscotsman I noticed an animations section at the end that provides all the names it expects and they do seem to accord with whats in the techdocs.
Actually the textures are NOT showing up. It seems like the textures could be more work. Fortunately I have enough disk space to load the whole SDK and hence can poke around in the .x file conv3ds is generating and hopefully figure it out. However its almost midnight here – so – enough fun for one day.
Thanks Mike I’ll be pleased to compare progress with you via email.
Richard
andnbsp; By MRRextreme (172.140.228.179) on Friday, July 27, 2001 – 08:54 pm: andnbsp;
Richard, thank you.
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Friday, July 27, 2001 – 09:08 pm: andnbsp;
Richard
Just saw the note that its the -e switch to conv3ds to change the texture references to bmp’s.
Also the ability to generate text .x files is usefull – might eliminate the need to download that huge SDK.
Thanks
Richard
andnbsp; By MRRextreme (172.140.228.179) on Friday, July 27, 2001 – 10:34 pm: andnbsp;
The -e option works but 3DC does not import model with the texture TGA saved as a BMP.
At any rate. The other original nontexture BMP appears on the model. Is there anyway to see the BMP in 3DC Pro and see the mapping to the model?
[img]c:windowsdesktop642.jpg[/img]
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 12:10 am: andnbsp;
Hi,
Sorry, there is no way to see or adjust the mapping on imported models.
Just wondering, did you look at the resulting x file to see if the TGAs were converted to BMPs?
Nice to see that it imported as well as it did.
Richard
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.33.151) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 05:45 am: andnbsp;
Richard S,
If you are using scotsman2000.3ds from the MSTS samples folder, the texture names in this file don’t match the names for the corresponding BMP and TGA files in the samples folder (they are shortened forms in the 3ds file). I looked at scotsman2000.3ds with Wordpad to get the texture file names and then renamed the BMP and TGA texture files accordingly. I then converted the TGA files to BMP with the alpha channel deleted.
I’ve used CONV3DS with the -e option and 3DC appears to load all of the textures now. I would post a screenshot, but, I’m ashamed to admit, I don’t know how to andnbsp;The x file import produces a 3DC model that is about 3x larger than the straight 3ds import, but I’ll worry about that later. Need to get a few domestic jobs done right now andnbsp;so trying the export will have to wait till later.
Mike
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.33.151) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 05:52 am: andnbsp;
image
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.33.151) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 06:06 am: andnbsp;
Guess reading the manual is always a good idea andnbsp;
Here is a screenshot… came out dark in 3DC so I ran it through Photoshop to lighten it.
Mike
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.1.167.149) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 08:05 am: andnbsp;
Taking a five minute break from the domestic jobs, so thought I would try a quick export of the model. Exported fine and produced a readable s file. Obviously won’t load in MSTS yet, but I guess a successful export implies that all objects are textured ?
Mike
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 08:17 am: andnbsp;
Hello Mike,
thanks for the info. I’ve got to about the same stage…Great minds as you say….
This is what I did…
I converted the .tga textures to .bmp’s (lost the alpha obviously) and then renamed them to sscot1.bmp ….sscot4.bmp respectively.
Then converted to .x with
conv3ds -e andquot;bmpandquot; -A -v2 scotsman2000.3ds | more
The resulting scotsman2000.x imported with the textures into 3DC and looks very pretty!
so far so good…
But problems after that…
Renamed the frames in 3DC to whatever they should be ( btw I found using the -v2 switch to conv3ds is usefull among other things it lists the node names)
Exported to .s and tried to load into MSTS and it failed to load. Have you had any luck with that?
I suspect its something to do with the animation data in the .x file not getting into 3DC properly?
Richard
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 08:33 am: andnbsp;
Richard,
thanks to help from you and Mike seem to have the solved the texture andquot;problemandquot;. Can generate a .s file OK
However having problems loading the .s into MSTS. Could it be something to do with the animation?
I must admit I am unclear how the animation data in the .x file relates to animation in 3DC or if it actually gets imported at all? There doesn’t
seem to be any animation at all in the resulting import?
To verify that there is animation data in the .s file I the converted from the .3ds something like this:-
conv3ds -e andquot;bmpandquot; -A -x -o:textscot.txt scotsman2000.3ds
the resulting textscot.txt had what appeared to be andquot;sensibleandquot; animation data at the end.
Your help appreciated.
Thanks,
Richard
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 09:59 am: andnbsp;
Hi,
Unfortunately, animation data is not imported into 3DC. This could be the problem. The two things lost on import (of x objects) into 3DC are animation information and frame names (at least as far as I can remember)
I was able to export this exact model to an andquot;.sandquot; file and then load it into MSTS. But, I didn’t try to load it as a locomotive, just a standard object.
Anyone else try this?
Richard
andnbsp; By MRRextreme (172.130.221.208) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 11:32 am: andnbsp;
Richard Borsheim,
That is why I was asking you about a seperate option for exporting locos since I knew the files had to be different. I know someone on the MSTS train-sim loco design page did acheive translational motion on a loco they designed in 3DC. So that does work. Motion with an imported loco may be another issue. Animation of the distinct parts probably will require interpretation of the .x file and placing the animation parameters by hand post 3DC export.
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.193.119) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 11:39 am: andnbsp;
I don’t think animation is necessarily the problem. I’m sure I’ve seen a message on one of the boards, (probably MS) that someone had exported a ‘hover’ locomative that worked i.e. no bogies or wheels. I’ll try and find it to check.
Richard S, you’re a bit ahead of me again .. did you use the MS utility to convert your new texture files to ace format ? The MSTS ‘scotsman’ trainset folder uses different texture names to those in the 3ds sample file. Therefore, I would guess you need to replace SScotsman02 with your ace version of sscot2, etc.
Also not sure if you need to add the transparency information manually before exporting the model…. my next action was to check Richard B’s notes on this.
Also I have been comparing the x file produced with CONV3DS with the MSTS scotsman.s file. The object/matrix names are the same with one exception… MAIN_WHEEL in the x file is called MAIN_WHEEL_LINK in the s file. Don’t know if this matters, but the later is consistent with the MSTS documentation.
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 11:39 am: andnbsp;
Richard,
Thanks.
Not suprisingly when I looked at the .s file that 3DC generated from the imported .x file the animations section was empty – ie not present.
I am experimenting reverse engineering. Animating in 3DC and exporting to a .s file then looking at what it generates in the animations section and comparing it with the animation section in the MSTS supplied .s for this engine.
Also going to try andquot;tweakingandquot; the animations section of the supplied .s file to try see what it does.
Tring to find out:
1. The syntax and meaning of the animations section of the .s file. Any insights or information from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
2. What the various animations in 3DC generate in the animations section of the exported .s file. And hence how to generate whats required. Again any insights or information would be greatly appreciated.
Actually the animations section of the .s file looks like its just barely possible to andquot;hand editandquot; as a last resort – if needed.
Richard
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 11:53 am: andnbsp;
Richard S,
I believe that 3DC does export valid andquot;sandquot; animation inforation, it just can’t import andquot;xandquot; animation information. All you should need to do is animate it.
Besides, most locomotives do not need ANY animation information. There is a Eurostar train (I forget where I got it) that doesn’t have any animation information at all. The only time you need animation information is when you have things like wiper blades that need movement. I think MSTS animates wheels automatically.
You might want to consider starting with something other than Scotsman. It is a very complicated model. It has lots of animated parts.
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By ianm42 (213.122.187.137) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 11:54 am: andnbsp;
I’m really grateful you guys are working so hard on this. I will be back home from my holiday next week, and trying to catch up with you, as I start learning pretty much from scratch. Keep up the good work, and keep posting your successes and failures so that I and others can benefit from your trials and tribulations,
Ian M.
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 12:00 pm: andnbsp;
Mike,
Thanks,
actually on reflection I think you are right – that animation is probably NOT the reason why it won’t import right now. (Though obviously its going to be an issue later on – and kind of interesting to delve into).
No I had not tried re-building the ace files – I’ll try that and try to figure out how to add the transparency info. Hadn’t spotted MAIN_WHEEL and MAIN_WHEEL_LINK difference either.
Ill try fixing these and let you know.
Richard
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 12:25 pm: andnbsp;
Richard,
In retrospect I think you are right – the Scotsman is a tough one to start with – but my interest is in steam engines – and the charm of all those rods and pistons etc.
I have the Eurostar and I just took a peek in the .s file – like you said there is no animation section. So obviously you are right about auto animation of the wheels but I dont believe pistons rods etc are auto animated? Besides having got this far…
When I animate Scotsman in 3DC it is definitely generating animation data in the .s files – trying to figure it out, and hence how to do the animation
Thanks,
Richard
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.156.76) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 01:40 pm: andnbsp;
Richard B,
Tried exporting my model now, but no joy with loading it into MSTS.
Agree about the Scotsman being complex to start with, but I think it’s the only model in the MSTS sample files that comes with a 3ds model and all of the texture files, therefore, it seemed the most obvious one to use in an attempt to get to grips with the system.
I notice that the s file exported from 3DC is about 3 times larger than the coressponding MSTS s file. Also the 3DC export can be read fully as text in Wordpad while the MSTS one can not. Does this suggest anything I might be doing wrong ? If not I’ll try progressively deleting some of the objects from the model. I’ll start with the animated elements in case that is the problem, although I tend to feel that this is not the cause.
Mike
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.124.180) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 02:33 pm: andnbsp;
Sorry Richard, forgot to read the manual again andnbsp;
Hadn’t put the s file through txt2uni.exe.
Only potential problem is that the 3DC s file size is 1,216KB, as compared with 146KB for the MSTS equivalent. Am I missing a file compression step somewhere ?
Thanks for getting us this far though.
Mike
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 02:49 pm: andnbsp;
Mike,
So does that steam engine actually work? It sure looks like it does. Do the wheels roll around? Did you do any animation of the assorted parts?
I might know hot to fix the translucency of the wheels. Sample them (using the Sample tool), set a transluceny texture layer using the same texture as the wheels themselves and reapply the texture, flat wrapped, using the Paint tool. They may look funny in 3DC, but I think it will work on export. But make sure you save the new model under a different name just in case I am giving you wrong information.
There is a program (provided with MSTS) that converts text based S files to binary S files. I forget what it is called right now. That is the difference in size.
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 03:22 pm: andnbsp;
Mike,
thats great. I too now have a driveable andquot;square wheeledandquot; Scotsman in MSTS! Didnt need to convert the ace – problem was a typo I had the wrong names on some of the frames.
Have you got anywhere fixing the transparency problem?
Using 4-6-2 nomen do you find find wheels on the 4 bogie and the 2 bogie auto animate but the 6 bogie wheels and all the pistons and rods are are frozen – thats what I get – so I gues they need hand animation in 3DC.
From what I have read in the train-sim forum a huge expansion in the size of the .s file is to be expected – so far as I am aware if there is a compression routine MS/kuji have not released it.
I did peek at the two .s files (MSTS supplied versus 3DC generated) and saw lots of differences.
Richard
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.18.90) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 03:29 pm: andnbsp;
Richard B,
Just took her out for a run after the last post andnbsp;
The small bogie wheels were animated (by default I guess, as you suggested) However, the main driving wheels and rods weren’t. I hadn’t done any animation of my own… need to learn that.
Is the file you are referring to txt2uni.exe ? Not running the exported s file through it was the reason it wouldn’t load in MSTS initially. However, txt2uni produces a large increase in file size. Here are the comparison sizes:
MSTS Scotsman s game file 146 KB
MSTS 3ds file used as start point here 119 KB
x file produced from 3ds 228 KB
s file exported from 3DC 608 KB
s file from txt2uni (loads into MSTS) 1216 KB
On reason I’m a little concerned about the file size, is that the game locked up on me after about 5 minutes. I’ll do some more checks to see if this is reproducable/repeatable. The only other time I can remember having this problem was with the Empire State Express download, which also has an associated s file of about 1MB.
I think I follow your comments on transparency, so I’ll give that a try.
Mike
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.18.90) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 03:39 pm: andnbsp;
Richard S,
Sorry, missed your post while writing mine …shouldn’t you be in the garden ?
Thanks for the info about file sizes. Guess there’s not much we can do about it at the momment then. I am concerned that it is the cause of lock ups though… happens while in external view. Be interested to hear if you have any problems.
Do you want to try and work out the animation while I work on the transparency issue ? that would avoid duplicating effort and you seem more inclined towards the animation side, while I feel more comfortable with the graphics issue right now.
Mike
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 03:40 pm: andnbsp;
Hi,
No, not txt2uni.exe. The program is called ffeditc_unicode.exe and there is a techdoc that explains it. The techdoc is called andquot;How to convert files to binary formatandquot;.
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 03:45 pm: andnbsp;
BTW,
The procedures you are using should make it so that any program that can export a .s file can be used to create engines/objects for MSTS by using 3DC Pro as a conversion utility.
So Lightwave users, Rhino users, Cad users etc. can make objects in their favourite 3D modelling program. No need to learn 3DC Pro.
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.18.90) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 03:46 pm: andnbsp;
Richard B,
Know the file you mean. That’s the one I used to convert s files to txt format. Thanks, I’ll have another look at it.
Mike
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 04:04 pm: andnbsp;
Mike,
sure – I will have a try at the animation. Not very knowledgable about 3d anim – but anxious to find out. Need to do some reading up!
First guess as to how to do it would be to use Inverse kinematics based on wheel rotation for the pistons, rods etc?
Similarly inverse kinematics for the wheel rotation w.r.t movement of the MAIN frame. Maybe someone more knowledgable could set me straight ?
From what I remember from using ffeditc_unicode.exe it does NOT achieve much of a saving in file size in fact I seem to remember it actually made some files bigger for me – but could be mistaken.
Good luck with the transparency stuff!
Richard
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 04:09 pm: andnbsp;
Richard S
You won’t want to use Inverse Kinematics. Just move and rotate stuff in animation mode. You might want to check out the andquot;Basicsandquot; tutorial.
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.198.94) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 04:19 pm: andnbsp;
Richard,
This is all new to me too, but we seem to be making progress. Gone midnight for me now though, so the transparency issue is going on hold for a few hours andnbsp;
Ian M,
thanks for the words of encouragement. Look forward to you joining in next week.
Mike
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 04:51 pm: andnbsp;
Richard,
thanks for the advice – Ill get started on the tutorials.
I was thinking the rotation of the wheels is based on the forward/back motion of the engine as controlled in the sim, and ditto motion of the pistons based on rotation of the wheels. Could not see how a time based animation would achieve this.
A software engineer by trade so naturally always read the documentation as a last resort – if at all. Seems like should read the tutorials though.
Richard
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 04:59 pm: andnbsp;
Richard
All I really know about animation is that the Scotsman example has 8 key-frames worth of animation information (If I remember right).
Probably the best place to look for this is on forums relating to MSTS engine design.
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By MRRextreme (172.144.63.86) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 05:29 pm: andnbsp;
Richard Borsheim,
I did get the textures read in. There was a misspelling in my file name.
The body seems like one solid objects. Can I access the faces to repaint or reshape an imported object?
Thanks as always.
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 05:32 pm: andnbsp;
Richard
WOW! I just did a simple animation through 8 frames on one of the driving wheels and coupling rods and it looks like your convert to .s / and the MSTS sim takes care of everything concerning relative animation w.r.t the trains motion.
Actually looks easy to do the proper animation – bit tedious but easy. Hopefully will get it done after a fashion this evening.
Seems so easy – who knows – maybe a UP andquot;Big Boyandquot; next week! andnbsp;
Thanks for the a great job you did on this – thats what makes it easy!
Maybe I’ll read those tutorials tomorrow!
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 05:46 pm: andnbsp;
Hi MRRextreme,
Yes, You can modify/repaint the object.
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 05:46 pm: andnbsp;
Richard S,
Great to hear. I hadn’t properly tested the animation, but I was fairly confident it would work (though not 100% sure).
New version coming tomorrow that adds a few very minor features. Hopefully the MSTS export will then be andquot;doneandquot;.
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 08:31 pm: andnbsp;
Mike, Richard,
Finished the scotsman animation – its crude haven’t had time to tweak it properly but it all works fine in MSTS. Still square wheeled of course because of the transparancies.
Mike – I’ll email you the scotsman.s and scotsman.cds files.
The animation was a bit tedious and innaccurate because I just used the mouse to move the rods and wheels for each frame. Saw a reference to scripts somewhere – maybe they provide a better way to do that sort of thing. Guess I should read those tutorials.
Richard
andnbsp; By Rcich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Saturday, July 28, 2001 – 08:46 pm: andnbsp;
oops – scotsman.s and scotsman.3dc files that is.
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (195.92.168.166) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 – 03:18 am: andnbsp;
Richard S,
Thanks for the files. Loaded into MSTS and it ran okay. Nice to see the wheels turning andnbsp;
Wish I could say that I had been as successful with the transparency. I can get it but not without some distortion:
I tried using the 3DC sampler in various ways but no joy. In general the way it looked in 3DC was the way it looked in MSTS. I produced the above shots by reverting to Richard’s recommended method for static objects. I split the TGA into two parts and loaded the opaque and transparency information seperately. I then converted the TGA to an ace file and copied that to the trainset directory.
I’ve played around quite a bit now and don’t think this will be a problem on new models. The next shot shows the method applied to a cube primitive and to the isolated wheel sets :
Not sure we can take this line of approach any further, unless Richard B has any ideas ? Guess it’s probably time to try out what we’ve learned so far on a new model.
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (195.92.168.167) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 – 04:21 am: andnbsp;
A half buried metalic ball pulling the Scotsmans consist in MSTS…. What’s the point ?
The point is a week go I thought I needed to do something complicated in 3DC, now I know I don’t. It took about 3 minutes to get the ‘Flying Ball’ running in MSTS and I even forgot to rename the frame andnbsp;
Okay, it’s a trivial example, but it’s a start I can build on, as can anyone else who wants to.
Thanks for the work you did Richard.
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 – 06:21 am: andnbsp;
Rich/Mike,
I have now achieved roughly the same things that you achieved (An animated version of the Scotsman converted and animated using 3DC Pro), so I have released 4.2. You’ll want to read the latest tutorial because there is some new information.
The wheel issue is interesting. I was able to get it looking correct. Here is what you do:
1) Switch to face/point mode.
2) Select the edge on the wheel that splits the wheel diagonally in two
3) Trim the edge (Trim operation)
5) Paint the face with the Paint tool.
With the edge there 3DC thinks that you want to apply the texture at a width equal to the diagonal (3DC doesn’t like the triangles in this case). Removing the diagonal fixes this. There are other ways to do this, but this is the easiest.
(Note that this will likely only work with the released 4.2. I fixed a bug that was in the beta)
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 – 06:31 am: andnbsp;
Mike,
I agree – obviously 3DC can do everything needed to build trains at least as complex as the Scotsman for MSTS.
And 3DC is nice and easy to use and very inexpensive compared with Studio Max – the only other alternative as I am aware.
The difficulties we had were nothing at all to do with 3DC but derived from converting from an external format -3ds.
A usefull learning experience and proof of concept – but enough’s enough – on to building a the andquot;Mallardandquot; for me.
Thanks for the help from you and Richard B.
Richard
andnbsp; By Rich Stam (66.31.180.68) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 – 06:41 am: andnbsp;
Richard,
hey it keeps getting better!
I’ll download the released 4.2 and get to work on andquot;The Mallardandquot;.
Thanks for the help – and the great product!
Richard
andnbsp; By ianm42 (194.235.194.86) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 – 11:28 am: andnbsp;
I hope you will post your A4 at [img:3p7mvbiu]http://www.trainsimfiles.net[/img:3p7mvbiu]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://www.trainsimfiles.net">http://www.trainsimfiles.net</a><!– m –>
when it is done, please,
Ian M.
<!– e –><a href="mailto:ian@trainsimfiles.com">ian@trainsimfiles.com</a><!– e –>
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.139.189) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 – 12:54 pm: andnbsp;
Richard B,
Thought I would round off my contribution to the current discussion by posting an image of the Scotsman with the texturing done as you suggested.
Sorry for posting so many images, but I thought it might be useful to show board readers that we had met our objective with this exercise. The Scotsman nameplate is not clear in the image, but it is mapped okay. In this case, it was necessary to rotate the object in order to paint the texture in the correct orientation and rotate it back afterwards. I must admit though that I didn’t try the cab.
Richard S, thanks for cooperating on this exercise, it was extremely helpful to me. Please let me know how you get on with ‘The Mallard’. I fancy trying something realy early, like ‘The Rocket’ or ‘The Iron Duke’ if I can find some specifications andnbsp;Failing that I have a reasonable set of images and specs for a ‘N’ Class 2-6-0. In either case don’t hold your breath, I’ve got a lot to learn about modelling yet.
andnbsp; By Richard Borsheim (Richard_Borsheim) (24.76.55.123) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 – 01:16 pm: andnbsp;
Mike,
Thanks for the posts. Not too many pictures at all (but I have cable modem).
I think we should probably gather together the specifics of what we did to achieve this. What specifically was done to convert a 3DS file to a S file using DirectX’s CONV3DS.EXE and 3DC Pro. It would save people trouble in the future. The biggest thing is that CONV3DS.EXE renames all textures (makes them 8 chars long) and doesn’t rename the andquot;tgaandquot; to bmp (I think).
I actually have something VERY useful for this process. A fellow I know wrote a script that allows for the updating of materials on objects without having to reapply the material. This would allow you to set a translucency layer for the wheels manually without having to re-apply the material. This would also work on the cab. Re-mapping it would be a lot of trouble. You can also set the the Ambient and Specular values. I think that the Ambient values are not stored in the 3DS file (since in MAX they are just using named materials not real materials). It probably is just a touch dark in the game.
I’ll be posting that script in the next while. The author has given me permission to do so.
Richard
Amabilis Software
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.33.13) on Sunday, July 29, 2001 – 03:00 pm: andnbsp;
Richard,
I agree about documenting what we did. I’ve been feeling my way in the dark here and it would be a good idea to get everything written down while it’s still fairly fresh in my mind. It’s getting a little late for me to do that tonight, so I’ll re-work my way through the process and the board coments tomorrow and make notes. I’ll mail those to you and you can extract information as you see fit.
You’re right about the cab textures andnbsp;Tried them after my last post. Couldn’t get anywhere with them, but that was possibly due in a large part to my lack of modelling experience.
andnbsp; By Ron Pertuit (24.204.16.65) on Tuesday, July 31, 2001 – 06:16 pm: andnbsp;
Mike, I would be very interested in your documentation. I’ve tried following the thread but don’t know enough about what you all were doing to really follow it. I would like to give a shot at MSTS 3D modeling using 3DC but I need to see an actual step-by-step documentation of the file manipulations before I could justify the cost of the program.
P.S. My wife’s maiden name is Pye. Wonder if there’s a connection somewhere?
andnbsp; By ianm42 (212.127.8.122) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 – 02:14 am: andnbsp;
I posted a very simple step-by-step tutorial that if you follow it, you should get a new building into MSTS in an hour or two. It is very basic, but hopefully should give confidence to progress to something more complex.
get it from (2.3Mb):
[img:3p7mvbiu]http://www.trainsimfiles.net/cgi-bin/d.cgi?d=15[/img:3p7mvbiu]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://www.trainsimfiles.net/cgi-bin/d.cgi?d=15">http://www.trainsimfiles.net/cgi-bin/d.cgi?d=15</a><!– m –>
Ian M.
andnbsp; By Mike Pye (213.122.153.2) on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 – 06:39 am: andnbsp;
Ron,
You’re welcome to a copy of the notes if they will help. Mail me at <!– e –><a href="mailto:mike.pye@btinternet.com">mike.pye@btinternet.com</a><!– e –> and I’ll send you a copy.
My family come from Shropshire, England. If you think there might be a chance of a connection I’d love to hear about it. Family history research is another of my activities andnbsp;
Mike