Double-sided ? (before I redo my project)

Thanks..hope it helped in some way. <!– s:) –><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!– s:) –>

Bazza

I thought I was close to the end of my commuter train model.
However I am regularly running into big problems and I think I came to a dead end ( [img:cfecqf70]http&#58;//amabilis&#46;com/forumattachments?a=tpcands=2396098374andf=8846020084andm=36110839911[/img:cfecqf70]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://amabilis.com/forumattachments?a=tpcands=2396098374andf=8846020084andm=36110839911">http://amabilis.com/forumattachments?a= … 6110839911</a><!– m –>
).

So I am going to start all over again <!– s:( –><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_sad.gif" alt="" title="Sad" /><!– s:( –>
following operations indicated in the post dated ‘Wed December 01 2004 02:21 PM’ from
[img:cfecqf70]http&#58;//amabilis&#46;com/forumattachments?a=tpcands=2396098374andf=8846020084andm=92510190911[/img:cfecqf70]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://amabilis.com/forumattachments?a=tpcands=2396098374andf=8846020084andm=92510190911">http://amabilis.com/forumattachments?a= … 2510190911</a><!– m –>

It is important that I fully understand the detailed process :
1) build exterior (extrude; any operation necessary to change the shape)
2) build interior (another independant object)
3) Fit them into place
4) [b:cfecqf70]double-side[/b:cfecqf70] interior and exterior (will this operation allow to have real holes in the shape ?)
5) make door hole by shape substraction from interior and exterior (what is the best way to handle this as the [b:cfecqf70]interior floor will be at the same level as the bottom of the door hole[/b:cfecqf70]; so the ajustement of the door shape doesn’t seem easy)

Although I’ve followed all the posts on these threads, I haven’t commented at all as I don’t use MSTS any more.
I thought it better left to those who do to answere your questions as you need to work within the requirements of MSTS.

I think you may have made the mistake we probably all made initally…trying to build a fairly complex model with animated doors without first learning how to use all the features in 3DC. No doubt you have learnt a lot along the way so your time hasn’t have been wasted. <!– s:) –><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!– s:) –>

The way I would approach this project would be to make list of all the options you have to produce the parts you need. Decide which parts are going to give the most problems and then have a few dummy runs trying to produce these parts of the model in different ways.
Then choose the method you think most suitable to produce each part.

If you want the doors to open and close, this would seem a good starting point as it will be the doors that control how the model is built. IMO
I would opt for building the sides in three parts…a forward and rear section with the door making the third part.
I would then build the ends, roof and floor again as seperate parts, getting them to fit nicely together.
Then if you wish you could merge together all of the parts except for the doors.

Hope some of this helps…forward planning seems to be the key with sort of project. <!– s:) –><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!– s:) –>

Bazza

Thanks for the tips (are you using another train simulation than MSTS ?).

Your approach is not like the one on my sketches in the quoted post (and OK’d by Richard).

At least, with your method I can clearly see the steps to be done and it follows a very important rule : an edge must not share more than 2 faces.

Then some questions :
1) What is the best way to make the pieces ‘fit nicely together’-�.
With ‘Snap Scale’-� / ‘snap-to’-� interval ? It is not clear to me in [img:i9wmvlhu]http&#58;//www&#46;3DC&#46;info/3DCDocumentation/tutorialusingbooleanoperations&#46;htm[/img:i9wmvlhu]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://www.3DC.info/3DCDocumentation/tutorialusingbooleanoperations.htm">http://www.3DC.info/3DCDocum … ations.htm</a><!– m –>
how to use these operations.
The weld operations coming next have to be made carefully not to break the ‘an edge must not share more than 2 faces’-� rule.

2) Your method doesn’t need double sided (as it builds several independent objects to be put together). Could you however explain the ‘double sided’ operation / what it does to a model / when it is useful ? To make holes ?

I think the mistake you made is that you double-sided your item before it was entirely complete. The doule-side plug-in is only to be used on completed shapes. In fact, my preferred method would be to NOT use the double-sided plug-in but instead copy/paste your shape and then use the invert operation to create the interior and then place it in the correct location. That way you have two separate shapes. One for the exterior and one for the interior.

But having said that, if you are really knowledgable about modelling the double-sided plug-in is a really handy feature.

Richard

[BLOCKQUOTE class=’ip-ubbcode-quote’][font size=’-1′]quote:[/font][HR]Originally posted by Amabilis Support:
I think the mistake you made is that you double-sided your item before it was entirely complete. Richard [HR][/BLOCKQUOTE]
I didn’t use the plug-in… mainly as asked above, I still don’t figure what it actually does and what it is for (could someone help my blond mind ?).
I started with an object made with extrude tool (a -+ part). Then I ‘carved’-� it with divide edge / set position / trim in order to make precise holes and shapes.
Then I mirrored it.

[BLOCKQUOTE class=’ip-ubbcode-quote’][font size=’-1′]quote:[/font][HR]Originally posted by Amabilis Support:
But having said that, if you are really knowledgable about modelling the double-sided plug-in is a really handy feature.

Richard [HR][/BLOCKQUOTE]
… so I’d better not use it.

[BLOCKQUOTE class=’ip-ubbcode-quote’][font size=’-1′]quote:[/font][HR]Originally posted by Amabilis Support:
In fact, my preferred method would be to NOT use the double-sided plug-in but instead copy/paste your shape and then use the invert operation to create the interior and then place it in the correct location. That way you have two separate shapes. One for the exterior and one for the interior.

Richard [HR][/BLOCKQUOTE]
I create an object for the exterior. OK
I create an object for the interior OK
But it’s the interior seen from outside =andgt; invert needed (but I wonder how an mainly concave shape would be after invert…)
… And there I don’t see the assembly process to make afterwards. I understand bazza’s method (but it looks tricky to put the pieces together) but I don’t follow you.

Oh! and what about the doors ?

I became a bit dis-heartened with the graphic limitations with MSTS. I have quite a good computer with a good graphics card capable of running my locos and rolling stock in 32bit colour without any problem. All the work I was putting in to building and texturing my models was, IMO, being destroyed when viewed in MSTS. BUT thats not to say MSTS isn’t a good programme, it is, but I think it’s lacking visually.

I use Blitz3D a lot so decided to have a go at writting my own Train-Sim. It’s more of a watch the trains go by sim at the moment but I’m quite happy with that for now. The only restrictions I have is what my system is capable of.
I can use all the features my graphics card is capable of…32bit colour, lightmaps mipmapping and cubemapping etc… Take a look here to see what I mean.
[img:3pvcy5kn]http&#58;//sleepyhollow3&#46;mysite&#46;wanadoo-members&#46;co&#46;uk/[/img:3pvcy5kn]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://sleepyhollow3.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/">http://sleepyhollow3.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/</a>&lt;!– m –>

Re your model…you will need to check with an MSTS user if my method will work OK with MSTS, you may need to make adjustments. The method you discussed with Richard is just one way of achieving your goal, I think Richard was just confirming that what you where doing would work OK. Thats not to say it’s the ONLY way. No doubt Richard will correct me if I’m wrong. Try a few different methods and see which you like best.

All I do to get pieces to fit together is to line them up and then use the arrow keys to ‘ nudge ‘ them into their final position….seems to work OK.

You shouldn’t need to use the weld operation with the above method unless there is some requirement for it in MSTS.

The ‘double sided’ operation, although one of Paul’s simpler plugins, I find it to be one of the most useful and I use it often.
To see what it actually does use the Create Face plugin on a new scene. If you look at the back of the face you won’t be able to see anything because the face is ‘one sided’.
Now select the face and run either the Double sided plugin or Operation, whichever you are useing. If you look at the back of the face again it should now be visible…it is now Double sided…get it?

You can now select the faces on one side and extrude to make a solid object. So what you could do is, lay out the side of your carriage/train using the divide operation on the original one sided face…delete the door area…make the object double sided and extrude to the thickness you require.
Again this is just one way of doing it. You just need to find a way of working that suits you.

Bazza

[BLOCKQUOTE class=’ip-ubbcode-quote’][font size=’-1′]quote:[/font][HR]Originally posted by bazza:
… BUT thats not to say MSTS isn’t a good programme, it is, but I think it’s lacking visually.

I use Blitz3D a lot so decided to have a go at writting my own Train-Sim. …
Bazza [HR][/BLOCKQUOTE]

Yes MSTS graphics is not very good and you get a shock after working in 3DC !
What about Trainz ? Waiting for the 3DC plugin to be finished? Does it has beautiful graphics like Blitz3D ?
In Blitz3D you started from scratch ?
I believe there is a 3DC export format convenient for Blitz3D.

[BLOCKQUOTE class=’ip-ubbcode-quote’][font size=’-1′]quote:[/font][HR]Originally posted by bazza:
To see what it actually does use the Create Face plugin on a new scene. If you look at the back of the face you won’t be able to see anything because the face is ‘one sided’.
Now select the face and run either the Double sided plugin or Operation, whichever you are useing. If you look at the back of the face again it should now be visible…it is now Double sided…get it?

You can now select the faces on one side and extrude to make a solid object. So what you could do is, lay out the side of your carriage/train using the divide operation on the original one sided face…delete the door area…make the object double sided and extrude to the thickness you require.
Again this is just one way of doing it. You just need to find a way of working that suits you.

Bazza [HR][/BLOCKQUOTE]

Your explanations were quite helpful. I could not imagine that a face had a side with nothing.
So I made the quick test below.

And I understand the ‘invert’ operation :
the visible side becomes unvisible and vice versa.

I don’t know what the limitations are with latest version of Trainz, I’ve had a look at some of the screenshots and they still look a bit ‘ flat ‘ but seem to be an improvement on MSTS.
When Paul gets the plugins working I think I may splash out and give it a try. I’ve looked through all the features at the Trainz site but can’t find any reference to 32bit colour or support for lightmaps,mipmapping etc.

I find it annoying, to have a graphics card capable of producing some excellent results and then having to use a programme that reduces it’s capabilities to one of the older cards. But all the sims seem the same wether it be Trains, Aircraft, Ships or Cars. They don’t seem to have progressed and embraced the new technology in the same way that the games industry has. I have a feeling commercial interests may be the cause of this.

With Blitz, although I have to build everything myself and write the code, I’m not limited in any way. So I can utilize all the features of my graphics card and system.
Getting my models into Blitz is much easier than MSTS, it’s just a matter of exporting from 3DC to .x and loading straight into Blitz, although I do load the models into Gile first to produce the lightmaps.
My coding abilities are somewhat limited, so if my interests were in running a complex rail network I would probably have to use one of the commercial train sims.
However I do like to see my models reflect the time end effort I have put in to buiding them so at the moment Blitz is my only choice.

Bazza

Trainz supports bump maps, (mip maps are automatic), environment mapping, 32 bit colour.

The plugin will *probably* be ready some time in Jan, though it may not support all the features to start with.

[BLOCKQUOTE class=’ip-ubbcode-quote’][font size=’-1′]quote:[/font][HR] Trainz supports bump maps, (mip maps are automatic), environment mapping, 32 bit colour.

The plugin will *probably* be ready some time in Jan, though it may not support all the features to start with [HR][/BLOCKQUOTE]
Thanks for the info Paul…my wife is asking if there is anything else I would like for Xmas, so I think I’ll give it a try.

Bazza

@ DOM107
This is JUST ONE method you could try to build your train parts, it’s just a mock up, you will have to arrange the faces to suit your model. It uses the double sided operation to give you some ideas on how it can be used.

I created a face using the Create Face plugin and divided it 3 times…then deleted the bottom 3 rows of faces leaving me with 5 rows and 8 columns of faces….I then adjusted the points to create the door and window openings etc…..Fig 1

I deleted the door and window faces…made the object double sided and extruded one side by .075 ( 3 inches)
Fig 2

Next I extruded the bottom row of faces to form HALF the floor area and dragged all the central points along the x axis to give the side a ‘ shape ‘

Then I cloned the model moving it along the x axis 5 units.
Next I Flipped the clone along its x axis giving me two halves