DDS Support in 3DC 7.0

[BLOCKQUOTE class=’ip-ubbcode-quote’][div class=’ip-ubbcode-quote-title’]quote:[/div][div class=’ip-ubbcode-quote-content’]As dds is not supported yet in 3DC how did you implement dds textures in your objects? [/div][/BLOCKQUOTE]
Missed this…some kind person on the Blitz site wrote a nice object/scene converter.
Although the textures applied in 3dc were .bmp files I can convert the object/scene to use the equivilant .dds files..takes about two secs <!– s:D –><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!– s:D –>

Bazza

Reading that 3DC 7.0 will support Direct3D DDS textures, and as I don’t know anything about DDS, I searched the web.
Here are some results.

But it would great if someone could have a good presentation on how it could be used and some good tools which are not dependent on ATI or on nVidia.

[img:3qjr0i76]http&#58;//www&#46;programmersheaven&#46;com/2/FAQ-DIRECTX-What-Are-DDS-Files[/img:3qjr0i76]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://www.programmersheaven.com/2/FAQ-DIRECTX-What-Are-DDS-Files">http://www.programmersheaven.com/2/FAQ- … -DDS-Files</a><!– m –>

‘This format is easy to read and write and supports features such as alpha (Pixel opacity info) and multiple mipmap levels, as well as DXTn compression.
The DDS file format is used to store textures and cubic environment maps, both with and without mipmap levels. This format can store uncompressed and compressed pixel formats, and is the preferred file format for storing DXTn compressed data. Other than DxTex, this file format is supported by some third party tools, and by the Direct3D extensions (D3DX) library.’
[img:3qjr0i76]http&#58;//www&#46;quake3bits&#46;com/htm/tutorials/create_dds_ati_compressonator&#46;htm[/img:3qjr0i76]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://www.quake3bits.com/htm/tutorials/create_dds_ati_compressonator.htm">http://www.quake3bits.com/htm/tutorials … onator.htm</a><!– m –>

[b:3qjr0i76]Apart from mipmap levels (ako LOD levels for textures), what’s more from TGA format (tga also has compression)? [/b:3qjr0i76].
Diffuse, Specular attributes can be specified in the texture file?

DDS File Reference:
[img:3qjr0i76]http&#58;//msdn&#46;microsoft&#46;com/library/default&#46;asp?url=/library/en-us/directx9_c/dx9_graphics_reference_dds_file&#46;asp[/img:3qjr0i76]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/libr…ference_dds_file.asp">http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/defau … s_file.asp</a><!– m –>

This format was introduced with DirectX 7. [b:3qjr0i76]In DirectX 8, support for volume textures was added[/b:3qjr0i76] (also supported by 3DC 7.0?).

I looked in PaintShop Pro 10: I don’t see DDS in ‘save as’ options.
But it seems that some plugins can be used.

Some recent converters below where found in
[img:3qjr0i76]http&#58;//cs&#46;elderscrolls&#46;com/constwiki/index&#46;php/DDS_Tools[/img:3qjr0i76]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/DDS_Tools">http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/in … /DDS_Tools</a><!– m –>

nVidia plugin for PaintShop
[img:3qjr0i76]http&#58;//www&#46;civcityforums&#46;com/data/Detailed/Tools_and_Utilities/DDS_plugin_for_PaintShop_Pro_84&#46;html[/img:3qjr0i76]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://www.civcityforums.com/data/Detailed/Tools_and_Ut…aintShop_Pro_84.html">http://www.civcityforums.com/data/Detai … ro_84.html</a><!– m –>

Does it work with PSP 10 or more?

DXTBmp
[img:3qjr0i76]http&#58;//www&#46;mnwright&#46;btinternet&#46;co&#46;uk/programs/dxtbmp&#46;htm[/img:3qjr0i76]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mnwright.btinternet.co.uk/programs/dxtbmp.htm">http://www.mnwright.btinternet.co.uk/pr … dxtbmp.htm</a><!– m –>

16/24/32 bit and DXT Extended Bitmap Manipulation for FS2000, FS2002, FS2004, CFS2 and CFS3
Development stopped in May 2004.

nVidia plugin for PhotoShop
[img:3qjr0i76]http&#58;//developer&#46;nvidia&#46;com/object/photoshop_dds_plugins&#46;html[/img:3qjr0i76]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://developer.nvidia.com/object/photoshop_dds_plugins.html">http://developer.nvidia.com/object/phot … ugins.html</a><!– m –>

How to use it in PaintShop Pro
[img:3qjr0i76]http&#58;//download&#46;nvidia&#46;com/developer/NVTextureSuite/Paint_Shop_Pro_Steps&#46;pdf[/img:3qjr0i76]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://download.nvidia.com/developer/NVTextureSuite/Paint_Shop_Pro_Steps.pdf">http://download.nvidia.com/developer/NV … _Steps.pdf</a><!– m –>

(ATI compatible?)
It doesn’t work with PSP 11. It works with PSP 10, if file dds.8bi is copied in ‘..Plug-InsFile Formatsdds.8BI’.

DDS Converter 2.1
[img:3qjr0i76]http&#58;//eliteforce2&#46;filefront&#46;com/file/DDS_Converter;29412[/img:3qjr0i76]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://eliteforce2.filefront.com/file/DDS_Converter;29412">http://eliteforce2.filefront.com/file/D … rter;29412</a><!– m –>

On a screenshot, I see S3 and nVidia. This tool is not compatible with AMD/ATI ?

NConvert
[img:3qjr0i76]http&#58;//perso&#46;orange&#46;fr/pierre&#46;g/xnview/en_ncfeatures&#46;html[/img:3qjr0i76]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://perso.orange.fr/pierre.g/xnview/en_ncfeatures.html">http://perso.orange.fr/pierre.g/xnview/ … tures.html</a><!– m –>

nVidia tool
[img:3qjr0i76]http&#58;//developer&#46;nvidia&#46;com/object/nv_texture_tools&#46;html[/img:3qjr0i76]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://developer.nvidia.com/object/nv_texture_tools.html">http://developer.nvidia.com/object/nv_t … tools.html</a><!– m –>

(ATI compatible?)

There is also a ‘ATI .TGA Normal Map Generator’ but it lacks functions.

ATI tool
[img:3qjr0i76]http&#58;//ati&#46;amd&#46;com/developer/compressonator&#46;html[/img:3qjr0i76]
<!– m –><a class="postlink" href="http://ati.amd.com/developer/compressonator.html">http://ati.amd.com/developer/compressonator.html</a>&lt;!– m –>

[BLOCKQUOTE class=’ip-ubbcode-quote’][div class=’ip-ubbcode-quote-title’]quote:[/div][div class=’ip-ubbcode-quote-content’]Apart from mipmap levels (ako LOD levels for textures), what’s more from TGA format (tga also has compression)? . [/div][/BLOCKQUOTE]
Only the .dds file format remains compressed so the memory saving is massive.
TGA,JPEG,PNG etc are all uncompressed by your graphics card…these file formats only compress the File itself…DDS compresses the texture itself and yor card can work with this without uncompressing it.

Bazza

If you look at the attached pic…these are one of the textures from my dojang scene both are 512×512 in game…the one on the left is the original .bmp file which uses 1 meg of video memory…the one on the right is the .dds file, this uses only 170k of memeory. <!– s:D –><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!– s:D –>.
I recently converted all the dojang textures to .dds and saved nearly 60 megs of video memory. <!– s:D –><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!– s:D –> <!– s:D –><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!– s:D –> <!– s:D –><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!– s:D –>.
On top of this you are in complete control of the mipmapping, you set the amount of mipmapping you want for each texture rather than the app which is running the file setting an overall mipmap figure which effects all textures the same.
Also you have three(I think it’s three) alpha settings to choose from…no more black lines surrounding the opaque part of the texture.
All this in just one file format…fantastic.

The downside is you have to set all these attributes which can take quite a bit longer that normal texture files. Although most stuff uses DTX1 and most alpha stuff DTX5.

Thanks Bazza.

Very interesting feedback.

So all the texture attributes will have to be set outside 3DC (unless 3DC includes some dds texturing tools)?

What tool are you using to create your dds textures?

As dds is not supported yet in 3DC how did you implement dds textures in your objects?

[BLOCKQUOTE class=’ip-ubbcode-quote’][div class=’ip-ubbcode-quote-title’]quote:[/div][div class=’ip-ubbcode-quote-content’]Only the .dds file format remains compressed so the memory saving is massive.
TGA,JPEG,PNG etc are all uncompressed by your graphics card…these file formats only compress the File itself…DDS compresses the texture itself and yor card can work with this without uncompressing it.
[/div][/BLOCKQUOTE]

I know DDS very well, I’ve worked with it for the past 7-8 years.
It really isn’t much different to TGA, except when it is DXT compressed.

Only the DXT compressed formats remain compressed in the graphics card (saving memory)
You can have DDS files that are uncompressed ARGB.

The other main advantage is that they are already in a format that DirectX can read directly into its memory structure, so the loading overhead is low

The ‘lossy’ compressed ACE files for MSTS are almost DDS files, in DXT1 format.
The TrainZ .texture files are also DDS files, but with a slightly different header record.

Paul, I’m not au fait with DDS texturing. Does this mean that we can still create textures in a std (meaning my current) paint package and then convert to DDS format afterwards. Or will it mean having to buy another paint package if I wanted to carry on trainsim modelling? (I’m presuming that Kujusim will use this format.)

Kevin

As listed in my first post, there are stand alone programs and plugins for paint programs.
I wish someone could give some feedback about this since there are many programs, some are nVidia, some ATI, some may not work with some version of a paint program, etc…

I agree with you, 3DC move to support dds is certainly motivated with KRS using this format (also dds support is interesting for 3DC whether it is used for KRS or not).

I suspect there will be no change to current procedures.
Standard formats can still be used.
Not sure about KRS, but it will either be a custom format similar to DDS or any standard format.

TMTS supports DDS as well as jpg, bmp and tga (I even wrote code to convert the files directly during the export)

MSFS uses a form of DDS too.

It’s just another format, in general swapping between them is simple.

My shape viewer for train sims has a save button that converts ACE files to TGA or BMP – it would take about 2 lines of code to save the files as DDS as well.

I forgot to mention DDS files also store the mip levels (like ACE files) This is also supposed to improve loading times.

Thanks for the info.

I’m just trying to get a ‘feel’ for the cost of using the next gen trainsims, if I decide to carry on with modelling.

Kevin

I’m using the nVidia plugin with PhotoShop but I think you can use the same plugin with Paint Shop Pro.

Yes you create all the texture attributes when you save the file to .dds in your paint program.
You can convert your bmp,jpeg files in the same way…load the bmp into your paint program….then use Save As, and select DDS.

As Paul mentioned, only DTX1 to DTX5 can be used by your card in an compressed state….forget that bit <!– s:) –><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!– s:) –>

Bazza

[BLOCKQUOTE class=’ip-ubbcode-quote’][div class=’ip-ubbcode-quote-title’]quote:[/div][div class=’ip-ubbcode-quote-content’]Originally posted by kevm:
I’m just trying to get a ‘feel’ for the cost of using the next gen trainsims, if I decide to carry on with modelling.
[/div][/BLOCKQUOTE]

The only cost for the next gen stuff is going to be time.
Double the polygon counts per model, plus more complex texturing.
I also suspect they’ll be harder to get running properly.
– Trainz has been going that way for a while – they don’t seem to care about the size of the model, I’ve seen some real monsters.

It’s going to be hard work to start with, but should be fun with hopefully a great end result.

[BLOCKQUOTE class=’ip-ubbcode-quote’][div class=’ip-ubbcode-quote-title’]quote:[/div][div class=’ip-ubbcode-quote-content’]Originally posted by Paul Gausden:
[BLOCKQUOTE class=’ip-ubbcode-quote’][div class=’ip-ubbcode-quote-title’]quote:[/div][div class=’ip-ubbcode-quote-content’]Originally posted by kevm:
I’m just trying to get a ‘feel’ for the cost of using the next gen trainsims, if I decide to carry on with modelling.
[/div][/BLOCKQUOTE]

The only cost for the next gen stuff is going to be time.
[/div][/BLOCKQUOTE]

Not really!! My computer would not cope with the next gen sims. So as well as buying the game (sorry sim), I have to add the cost of a new computer , possibly new paint package, updated version of 3DC and so on. A hard decision to make just for one game <!– s;) –><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!– s;) –>

My apologies for going completely off topic!!

Kevin

Odds are that you would really only NEED a new graphics card, the game itself, and of course 3DC 7.0 <!– s;) –><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_e_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!– s;) –>. That is if you are OK with so-so frame-rates. IMO, the frame-rate doesn’t need to be that high for a train simulator. How it looks is way more important to me.

Back on topic: You can get a DDS translator for free from Microsoft in the DirectX SDK. All you need to do is download it.